Curse

Ebony Shadowheart · Oct 31, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

This feature in and of itself is not bad; nor is it flawed. It was created for the easy of sharing builds. However the 'flaw' in its use comes from the 'asshole factor' as I like to call it. So many people feel that if you're not wiki-ing your build or you're not using what THEY tell you to use, you're no good. This ASSUMPTION is whats wrong.

This is yet another reason I prefer to play with heros and hench, or guildies. I don't have to deal with people telling me how to play MY character. Everyone's play style differs, so one person may run one build great and another one that is similar but not the same rather badly.

Usually when I PuG with people, I don't ask for them to ping. If they do, I glance at what they are running. Usually I have no issues, but if I have a conern about a skill or I'm curious as to why they are running it, I ask or suggest. I don't tell them what to run or change. The exception to this is the use of firestorm or savannah heat in fow, uw, or the deep. Then I'll ask them to change it out, but I also explain why they need to.

the_jos · Oct 31, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Oh, since you seem to misunderstand the meaning of monks having cramped bars : this is because of the number of things you want your monks to be able to do, rather than using a whole bunch of skills that do the same thing. Monk bars maximize efficiency by using skills that synergize and cover multiple situations. One of the situations they do not need to cover, however, is ressing.

If we were talking PvP, I'd fully agree with you.
Same for organised guild teams.

You need to cover as much as possible on a PvP monk because you never know what kind of enemy you face.
You could face a FotM build, but also something completely different.
You could face a very pressuring enemy.
It's that uncertainty that demands a cramped bar.

My experience from monking a lot in HM areas/missions is that the 8th skill does not make the difference as much as it does in a PvP situation.
I know the enemies, how they react and what damage (including conditions/hexes) they do.
They also react in the same limited way all the time.
This enables me to have a build to counter those enemies.

If the monks can't keep the team alive with seven skills, it's time to reconsider the way the team plays.
If that does not help, change the team build.

I do run monk builds without res, even in HM.
Res is not the primary job for monks, agree on that.
However, when cleaning up the mess after a fight with several death team members, having res on the monk speeds up the gameplay. And saves the single-use resses for other times (if they were not used already).

Combat res for a monk?
Depends on the situation.
The times my guildies noticed my /yawn emotes while monking could be countless by now.
Having someone else res would mean (s)he is not doing damage.
I'm not doing a lot in the first place, except watching what's happening and using the right spells from time to time to make sure people have annoying hexes/conditions removed or don't take too much damage.

As you can see, from the PvE side of monking, there is room for argument on bringing a res or not.

HawkofStorms · Oct 31, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

As far as FoW goes I take 2 hex removals, one normally being Reverse Hex so I have a chance in Hex Removal Racing

And that is why you should have a second character with hex removal in FoW instead (like a mesmer with expel). Thus, why pinging builds in order to create a team cohesion (which is the point of this thread, stop trying to derail it everybody about a discussion about reses, make your own thread) is important.

Also, stop disguising your flames. Calling people who have different OPINIONS (yes, how you use a skill in a VIDEO GAME is an opinion!!) ignorant.

yesitsrob · Oct 31, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

And that is why you should have a second character with hex removal in FoW instead (like a mesmer with expel). Thus, why pinging builds in order to create a team cohesion (which is the point of this thread, stop trying to derail it everybody about a discussion about reses, make your own thread) is important.

Also, stop disguising your flames. Calling people who have different OPINIONS (yes, how you use a skill in a VIDEO GAME is an opinion!!) ignorant.

We do take an expel... that doesn't mean to say I'm not going to take 2 on my monk. Way to make random assumptions. Hexes are about the only thing that will slow you down in FoW, it's a pretty good idea to make sure you've got that covered in my opinion.

And it's absolutely not an opinion that certain skills bars are bad. The ping feature is good, I'm not saying cookie cutters bar what everyone should run.

But there's also a difference between experimental bars and poor bars. And the monk bar posted in this thread severely deserved to get booted from the group.

Regulus X · Oct 31, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Templates are good. Narrow-minded nazi-like players are not. You have the option to group with another team or even start another group. It's also best that you just get with your own guild and play with them (assuming they're not similar to the above mentioned). Wiki is okay, but not always the right stuff for a particular mission. I use wiki alot, but most times I tweak it alot and work around the concept of the build, depending on the conditions of the mission, quest or event at hand. I also use builds that're not posted on wiki that're highly effective. Wiki isn't always the answer, and if any team leader out there feels otherwise... I simply abandon his group and form up with another less "anal" party.

Also, please avoid flaming & trolling as it = FAILURE in and of itself. Remember... Don't argue with idiots; they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

DRGN · Oct 31, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

I hardly PUG anymore, but when I do, I don't try and force the people to run the build I want, per se, but I will give them some advice on some skills they can swap out to improve their build; if they don't want to use them, it's their choice. Typically, they find the suggestions helpful. The only time I really try to strong arm someone is if their build is so weak that it's going to be detrimental to the team, like an HH Mending wahmo or a melee necromancer. You can run what you want until it starts to be a problem for the team, at which point you should start listening to what people are saying. If it's just one guy picking at you, you can blow him off. If it's the entire team getting on you, take a hard look at your build. That one person might just be anal and nitpicky; seven people probably have a point.

Edit: I phail at spelling.

the_jos · Oct 31, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Fast cast res signet/deathpact/other res - won't be the same as a monk casting rebirth.

Mmm, let's see.
Rebirth casting time: 5 seconds.
Meaning 5 seconds I cannot heal/prot.
Energy drain is not much of a problem, since I only Rebirth with my negative set (+GoLE). Meaning I'm always back casting again when I ressed (so after 5seconds + aftercast time).

I do understand Yesitsrob's argument that he wants utility.
And that there is no room in his bar for a 'subpar' res.
Well, I won't say I can't swap anything out (I still have that res...) but I can't swap other skills easy without breaking the bar (hybrid prot most of the time). Taking the res instead of an 8th skill is personal choice, I guess.

Back to topic (a little).
The argument on 'Rebirth/Res on monk' is partly a 'Ping your build' problem.
People make comments on other people's builds / skills.
That's ok on a forum (I can re-read what I and other said) but harder in a team. I don't want to argue with someone about me taking any res when I monk.
I do see value of an 8th skill, I do see value of a res (since not all guildies are godlike HM players).
I'm just taking the 'pro-res' side because I feel like it and that way I learn more about how others think than just saying: "yes, you are right, res on a monk bar is not the best thing a monk in a organized team could take".

Antheus · Oct 31, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Since FoW gets tossed around a lot - the only two dungeons easier than FoW are Snowman's Lair and Underworld. For FoW, you need a single prot monk (not bonder). If there's a paragon in the party, so much for the better.

The reason why people ask monk to take a rez, is because they don't know how to rez fast and rez often. It's not a problem with build, but with players. If you are in a party with people who will rez (not monk with rebirth in middle of a wipe situation), there won't be any problems.

There are teams for Elite dungeons which do indeed bring rezzes on all characters. Those team builds are bad enough as it is, but they get the job done. For those, the rez doesn't really matter. If tank loses agro, the group wipes anyway, so recovery is rarely needed. For all elite areas, it has been shown that full groups aren't needed.

I personally will never run rez on a monk. In all the playing time, there hasn't been a single situation where this would prove fatal.

Also: Scroll of Resurrection. This puts the debate of whether a monk brings a rez or not to rest. If you need more than one per mission as a monk - might as well let the group wipe.

I will also never run bonder. If anyone needs a bonder, they have Tahikora. And I've even seen her rage quit over boredom.

Skills have been quite stable for a while now. The "good" vs. "bad" builds are known, so are the requirements for certain areas. As such, several viable builds have emerged. For "elite" areas - play like "elite", and run proven, viable builds.

But insisting on running something others are not comfortable with: either leave yourself or be kicked. It's team play after all. There's always H/H that will put up with every build.

Etta · Oct 31, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

The reason why people ask monk to take a rez, is because they don't know how to rez fast and rez often. It's not a problem with build, but with players.

You've got that right. I'll quote this guy from the paragon section.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryK

I mean seriously, WHY REZ AT ALL?! It's the monk's job.

See what I mean? Some people would rather run 8 attack skills and nothing else, and expect monk to do everything for them. "Ping build" allow me to avoid those kind of people, what's so bad about it?

politicsxxox · Oct 31, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

being able to ping a build is nessecary , people in pugs have really crappy builds(no offense) , such as has having gash with no crip slash or sever artery , using frenzy when they alrdy have a IAS like tiger's stance.most of the time , i accept people who dont have elites and stuff since they are new. These are only in missions and primaries though. But when it comes to doing elites like Doa or Dungeons in gwen , its time to cap an elite or ask look at guildwiki for once. Guildwiki's builds are to give you an idea of what to use in YOUR own build , not just to directly copy them and such.

Whiskeyjack · Oct 31, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Well first of all, we often run without a tank

I always run without a tank, just take a warrior instead.

FC_DriFteR · Oct 31, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

well it seems that a majority of people who have posted in this thread agree that a monk doesn't need a rez (I agree). My 2c on this is.......If in pve there is a fire ele in your team (99.99% of all ppl) they typically only need 3-5 skills to be always casting. Having the last few skills as glyph of sac and rez chant means reusable rez and a quick mid fight rez. For many areas in HM extinguish is also good imo.

Pinging bars is a great feature as it is a quick and easy way to share knowledge with other players. There are many people in my guild that have asked what is a good bar for hero x? I can quickly give them a bar that I have used on my heroes and know it works......unlike pvx wiki builds.

My advice for those nazi group leaders, just leave. For normal mode 90% of the time you could do with a group of 4 people, bring a friend who is a monk or a hero one, 3 decent offensive builds and the mission should be completed easy enough. I'm an easy going player so I have no problem with a w/mo with 2 healing skills and only 2 att points in HP into my group and get him through the mission. Sure I'll ask him/her to change their build and maybe give an example bar but at the end of the day if you are enjoying the game and so are they who really cares

Finally Hard Mode + pugs not a good idea, that's what friends are for

isamu kurosawa · Oct 31, 2007, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

We are talking PvE here, not PvP.

Deep Steel Wall team: Monks have res
Urgoz's B/P team: monks have res
DoA teams: monks have res

Guess what... All have Rebirth...
How can that happen if Rebirth is the worst skill of all and monks should not res in the first place?

Since it's PvE, which is totally predictable, I'd say a team that needs a 8-skill cramped bar that cannot have a res has failed from the start.

Because those builds are played by people who can't use a decent alternative and as such stick with the furst crappy build thats posted online to complete those area's.

IslandHermet · Oct 31, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

not 1 problem with the pinging of you skill bar the problem is the retarted leaders who spam GLF some HE build and you join they say ping you say ping what you want me to run and they kick you because they have no idea what build they are talking about. or they kick you due to you pinging the bar and not likeing it but are to lazy to ping you a bar they want you to use gotta love it.
the game will never change unless the people with the knowledge share it.
it is the same with farmers who know the spots to farm 100k in 10 mins but post on here with the farms that make 100k in a hour, GREED IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL

Str0b0 · Oct 31, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

In my experience it's not using a popular build that gets you in groups it's using a competent build. Avatar builds are much more popular than the EDA build I always run but I never get kicked from groups because anyone with half a brain can see that it will work and be beneficial to the party. I think most of the complaints about being kicked because your build wasn't "cookie cutter" are just veiled whines about being kicked for running a stupid build.

Antheus · Oct 31, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

You've got that right. I'll quote this guy from the paragon section.

See what I mean? Some people would rather run 8 attack skills and nothing else, and expect monk to do everything for them. "Ping build" allow me to avoid those kind of people, what's so bad about it?

In that case, the paragon is the one who gets kicked, even without pinging the build.

The reason is very simple. Who rezzes out of combat doesn't matter.

But in combat, if people are dying, then monks are the very person that needs to keep casting. The last thing you need in such situation, is monk stopping for 10 seconds to use rebirth (*shudder*).

The choice of rez has more to do with overall group dynamics, than skill bars.

This is why, in PUG situation, not giving monks a rez is a better choice - it prevents them from getting into a temptation, once the notorious wammo starts spamming "rez me", or, if they are pro: "I'm dead!".

Quote:

I always run without a tank, just take a warrior instead.

/clap. Good one.

elektra_lucia · Oct 31, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

not 1 problem with the pinging of you skill bar the problem is the retarted leaders who spam GLF some HE build and you join they say ping you say ping what you want me to run and they kick you because they have no idea what build they are talking about. or they kick you due to you pinging the bar and not likeing it but are to lazy to ping you a bar they want you to use gotta love it.
the game will never change unless the people with the knowledge share it.
it is the same with farmers who know the spots to farm 100k in 10 mins but post on here with the farms that make 100k in a hour, GREED IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL
IslandHermet is online now Report Bad Post Reply With Quote

For your information it's retarded, not retarted. I have tried to share knowledge, like don't run res's on monks. Bring prot. I'd say bring less people too. It's hard to give advice when people won't take it. You know? So you're left with half-arsed advice that the majority may or may not agree on.

Quote:

Well first of all, we often run without a tank

I always run without a tank, just take a warrior instead.

I know it was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve, but will you marry me?

.

Quote:

Because that mesmer has 7 other skills to use?

Again, saying people who disagree with you are morons is not constructive.

You are the very definition of a troll. A troll says "I'm not a troll, but... you're a Red Engine." Get over yourself.

Didn't say that, didn't say moron. Void and liable.

Quote:

Since FoW gets tossed around a lot - the only two dungeons easier than FoW are Snowman's Lair and Underworld. For FoW, you need a single prot monk (not bonder). If there's a paragon in the party, so much for the better.

I agree with this, so many people think prot = bond. For FoW, expel isn't needed. Veil is fine.

Martin Firestorm · Oct 31, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rexion

ANet could fix this by either:
A. taking it out sometime soon
B. leaving it out of GW2
C. *both*

I couldn't disagree more. This is one of the best features added since GW launched IMO, combined with the ability to save builds. When all those builds are getting pinged, you should check them out yourself even if you're not the one asking for the pings. When you see what you think could be a good build, save it for later. Also, I've had guildies and friends ask me to join them for pvp while I'm doing something else, and the convenience of them sending the build they want me to run through chat before I've even stopped what I was doing cannot be overstated. This is a win-win.

elektra_lucia · Oct 31, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

And the armour templates! I find that useful when I make new names or something.

bobrath · Oct 31, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

I like the fact that you can ping builds. There have been a good number of times where I "stole" a good build because it was pinged. Rather then bugging the person to type it all out, explain stats - I can have them ping it and then save it to disk. That's a huge improvement for me.

Secondly, if I'm in a group that's led by a skill nazi that's kicking every single person that either won't ping their build OR won't change out the skills to match the cookie cutter, well its a good indicator to me that I should probably leave the group as well.

We've all had experiences where a totally off the wall group did amazingly well. I remember the time I formed a group in Ring of Fire which had zero members of the "holy trinity". We completed it faster then I had ever done before. We literally steamrolled over everything and had a blast doing it.

I see build pinging as a great learning extension to the game. Treat other players with the same respect you want and its all good... oh wait this is the intarweb. SIGH